Buying an Old Used Rig... Wait- Isn't it Old and Used?

[izzywolf]

Hi guys.

I've been shopping around for a 4x4 rig under 10k (I've stated before that I'm too self-conscious to build the "Corollanator" and drive that into a corporation parking lot).

There seems to be plenty of options from 2005 and older. I have my sights on either a Mitsubishi Montero or a Lexus GX470. The thing is (despite both their stellar reputations as being tanks), a SUV from 2005 is... +15 years old. I do realize that mileage and location (out of the Salt Belt) matters.

Is it really possible to buy something that old without requiring major maintenance, or worse, unexpectedly having an issue that could mess the whole rig over (I'm not that experienced but I'd guess something with the engine or transmission)? What flaws should I keep an eye out for?

I would be going on slightly rocky trails on the weekends, with an occasional 5-day trip (every few months).


Looking forward to hearing your takes. Thanks!

 

[ThundahBeagle]

No, you will not find something that old that does not require major maintenance. Period. Even if you get it from New Mexico, there will still be questions about the transmission, and did it ever tow, and how much. If not that, then all belts,hoses, tires and every vaccum line should be replaced or ar least examined for dry rot...the alternator, exhaust, injectors, plugs & wires or coils, ball joints, U-joints should all be checked and or replaced. So, theres either some big things that might need to be done, or a slew of little things. If it's the latter, at least it can be spread out over some time, and hopefully you can do some of it yourself.

I took my 2014 GMC Sierra across the country and back this past May. Before I left, I had the transmission checked and serviced, the coolant changed, I changed all brake pads and rotors. Changed the A/c condenser and refilled it, changed the oil (whic I did again out in Bozeman), changed out the 4x4 fluid (just the same as trans fluid), checked the belts...most of this I did myself - saved a hell of a lot of money. So you see, even a 6 or 7 year old vehicle will need a lot of maintenance. Some of that, you should do to ANY used car you buy, just to make sure it's safe and reliable. If you can get out in front of it, you are much more likely to have a reliable vehicle no matter what the age

 

[Billiebob]

Is it really possible to buy something that old without requiring major maintenance, or worse,

no,

You buy old you need to know what to look at.
A good old vehicle is not cheap. A reliable old vehcle is not cheap. A well maintained old vehicle is not cheap.
You need to be able to focus on GOOD, RELIABLE, MAINTAINED. You need to add knowledgable people to the mix if you are not.

But no, even the best vehicle, new or used requires maintenance...... 15 years old exponentially so.
Most of us buying old 4x4s,,,, me included.... do it to avoid the idiot service writers at new car dealerships.
We buy old because we accept our oversights and would sooner just spend $1000 fixing it rather than arguing with the stealership.

Is it possible to win the lottery, sure but why waste that odd on a used car buy.

ps, ya want zero risk..... lease

 

[izzywolf]

No, you will not find something that old that does not require major maintenance. Period. Even if you get it from New Mexico, there will still be questions about the transmission, and did it ever tow, and how much. If not that, then all belts,hoses, tires and every vaccum line should be replaced or ar least examined for dry rot...the alternator, exhaust, injectors, plugs & wires or coils, ball joints, U-joints should all be checked and or replaced. So, theres either some big things that might need to be done, or a slew of little things. If it's the latter, at least it can be spread out over some time, and hopefully you can do some of it yourself.

I took my 2014 GMC Sierra across the country and back this past May. Before I left, I had the transmission checked and serviced, the coolant changed, I changed all brake pads and rotors. Changed the A/c condenser and refilled it, changed the oil (whic I did again out in Bozeman), changed out the 4x4 fluid (just the same as trans fluid), checked the belts...most of this I did myself - saved a hell of a lot of money. So you see, even a 6 or 7 year old vehicle will need a lot of maintenance. Some of that, you should do to ANY used car you buy, just to make sure it's safe and reliable. If you can get out in front of it, you are much more likely to have a reliable vehicle no matter what the age

I've fixed machinery before and used to be a fabricator, but when it comes to cars, there are so many different systems that I don't know where to even start to learn. Got any suggestions on where to start?

I hear your point about inspecting the components.

 

[izzywolf]

no,

You buy old you need to know what to look at.
A good old vehicle is not cheap. A reliable old vehcle is not cheap. A well maintained old vehicle is not cheap.
You need to be able to focus on GOOD, RELIABLE, MAINTAINED. You need to add knowledgable people to the mix if you are not.

But no, even the best vehicle, new or used requires maintenance...... 15 years old exponentially so.
Most of us buying old 4x4s,,,, me included.... do it to avoid the idiot service writers at new car dealerships.
We buy old because we accept our oversights and would sooner just spend $1000 fixing it rather than arguing with the stealership.

Is it possible to win the lottery, sure but why waste that odd on a used car buy.

ps, ya want zero risk..... lease

Okay, what would be a reasonable price for an old well-maintained rig?

And hold on, lease? They'd be okay with me going overlanding (or am I just paying for possible damage myself?)?

 

[Murphy Slaw]

Old is old...

 

[reaver]

I'll play devils advocate here, and say, yes, it is possible to get an old vehicle that is reliable.

I purchased a 2003 Xterra two years ago, for $5800 with 135k. In that two years, I've replaced a catalytic converter, and front wheel bearings.

I had 20+ pages of maintenance records and confirmation of major service items being done on time.

I wasn't in a hurry, and shopped around and did my homework on what I was getting. So while it IS possible to get one, it takes time, and legwork.

Now, that doesn't mean it's not going to require lots of maintenance. This winter, I'll be replacing all fluids, going through the suspension and steering, and doing other items that need attention before next year.

It's also due for tires.

My other truck also needs an oil change as well.

Do, all told, in the next year, I'm looking at probably about $1500 in maintenance costs for the X.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I'll play devils advocate here, and say, yes, it is possible to get an old vehicle that is reliable.

I purchased a 2003 Xterra two years ago, for $5800 with 135k. In that two years, I've replaced a catalytic converter, and front wheel bearings.

I had 20+ pages of maintenance records and confirmation of major service items being done on time.

I wasn't in a hurry, and shopped around and did my homework on what I was getting. So while it IS possible to get one, it takes time, and legwork.

Now, that doesn't mean it's not going to require lots of maintenance. This winter, I'll be replacing all fluids, going through the suspension and steering, and doing other items that need attention before next year.

It's also due for tires.

My other truck also needs an oil change as well.

Do, all told, in the next year, I'm looking at probably about $1500 in maintenance costs for the X.

That's the way to do it. Shop around, take your time, find one with maintenance records.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I've fixed machinery before and used to be a fabricator, but when it comes to cars, there are so many different systems that I don't know where to even start to learn. Got any suggestions on where to start?

I hear your point about inspecting the components.

Suggestions where to START, yes sir...

.check tires for tread, dry rot, or sidewall damage. Replace as needed.
.motor oil. Check it. Look for metal shavings, green fluid coolant, or sludge. If it has no foreign fluids, metal shavings or sludge, just change it, including the oil filter. If it has any of those nasty things in it, get ready to replace the heads and other hardware or get rid of the vehicle
.coolant. check that the level is not low and there is no rust floating around in there. Also check the radiator for evidence of past leaks
.spark plugs. Change them. Look at the old ones and mark which cylinder they come out of. The type of wear on them tells you a story of what may or may not be wrong with an engine.
.spark plug wires or coil packs. Look for wear or dry rot. Change them any time you change the plugs
.belts and hoses...look for wear or rot. Change them
.brakes. check them. Make sure the pads have more than 3mm pad thickness. 3mm is too little. New pads could be up to 12mm thick. Make sure rotors are totally smooth.
Could be good to just change the pads and rotors
.tie rods. Check them while doing brakes
.ball joints. Check them while doing the brakes.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I'll play devils advocate here, and say, yes, it is possible to get an old vehicle that is reliable.

I purchased a 2003 Xterra two years ago, for $5800 with 135k. In that two years, I've replaced a catalytic converter, and front wheel bearings.

I had 20+ pages of maintenance records and confirmation of major service items being done on time.

I wasn't in a hurry, and shopped around and did my homework on what I was getting. So while it IS possible to get one, it takes time, and legwork.

Now, that doesn't mean it's not going to require lots of maintenance. This winter, I'll be replacing all fluids, going through the suspension and steering, and doing other items that need attention before next year.

It's also due for tires.

My other truck also needs an oil change as well.

Do, all told, in the next year, I'm looking at probably about $1500 in maintenance costs for the X.

I bought my 2014 after getting the vehicle maintenance records from GMC. So I knew what I might be up against

 

[Mojavewanderer]

Don’t be afraid of an old vehicle! (2005 isn’t old!) I have a 1980 Toyota pickup, (that’s old!) that I’ve been driving for years, and for the most part, it’s been good. Yes, you will need to do maintenance, but that’s still cheaper than a payment on a new vehicle. My truck has almost every rubber piece replaced, belts, hoses, body mounts, ect, with the exception of the leaf spring bushings, I’ll do those when I do the springs. Of course all fluids have been changed, and the basic tune up. I’ve also changed the clutch and the clutch hydraulic cylinders. New wheel bearings and axle seals. That has been spread out over the last 5 years, so it hasn’t cost much at one time. I’ve done all this myself, so that saved me even more.
You also can’t beat the style of a classic vehicle!
That being said, I do worry on long trips, and it did leave me stranded on the side of the road when the distributor bearings froze up, and took out the timing gear. But that was just as much my fault for trusting a 40 year old distributor.
Then there is comfort, my 40 year old truck is nowhere near as comfortable as a new truck, and on the highway it doesn’t come close to anything new. Off road, the new trucks can’t compete though! I parked my truck with sagged out stock springs and 31 inch tires next to a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon with a 2 inch lift and 35 inch tires, ant the ground clearance was about the same.
There are pros and cons to an old vehicle, but an old one can still be a good choice.

 

[tjZ06]

I don't think it's realistic to think a $10k, 15 year old rig will have *no* issues. But I do think it's possible to buy a ~$10k rig that will be reliable and not break you with *major* failures.

This is normally where I rant and rave about WJs (2nd Gen Jeep Grand Cherokees), and I do think they might be a good option for you. WJ that aren't extensively built aren't $10k anymore, you're talking $5-6k for nice ones. However, my concern is that the 4.7L V8 does drop valves seats, it just does. That's a catastrophic engine failure, and it's not an easy/cheap swap. I've helped 2 friends find and buy WJs with either a new motor already installed (with the upgraded heads to prevent the valve seat problem) or just the updated heads, both in the $5-6k range. That'd leave you almost half of your budget to take care of whatever nagging problems your example has (driver's door wiring harness, blend doors, etc.) and do a mild lift/wheels/tires. Still, it's a bit of a needle in a haystack search to find that 'perfect' one with the engine work taken care of. You could go with the 4.0L I6 which has a better reputation for reliability, but then it comes with a problematic trans, and truth be told I think the V8 is just way better suited to the WJ. What a WJ gets you is solid axles front and rear, with coil-sprung multi-link suspension that articulates very well. If you get a Quadra Drive equipped unit you get active LSDs front and rear (it's an all-mechanical system, but very effective) as well. I'd look for a '02-04 Overland so you get the HO version of the 4.7, you get Quadra Drive, and you get all the interior features. It's cool having auto wipers, dual zone climate control, and other stuff in a $5k car. Also, a clean/straight WJ is very presentable in the office parking lot. Now, what a WJ doesn't get you is a ton of space... they're actually pretty small by modern standards. I think that's an advantage offroad, but if you want to slip *in* it or have a large family, it's not great. It also is always going to have random little nagging problems. The valve covers will leak, you'll fix that, then the blower motor resistor will go out, etc. etc. Other than the aforementioned valve seat problem, none of these are "leave you stranded problems" but it's just the nature of a ~20 year old Chrysler product. So, I guess I went ahead and ranted and raved about WJs anyway, but I'd proceed with caution. ;)

A GX would be an awesome buy too, though around me they're not in the $10k range yet without a lot of miles, around ~300k. Ones in the 150-200k mile range seem like they're still $15k. That said, a 300k mile GX470 might give you less problems than a 150k mile WJ. In fact, a 300k GX almost certainly will be more reliable than a 150k mile WJ, lol.

Monteros seem like the sleeper right now. I just looked and it's hard to find one, even a newer one, for more than like $5k in my area... but they also all seem rougher and to have lived tough lives.

Anyway, I *do* think you can get something where the chances of a major drivetrain failure are lower (not zero), but they will all have random little issues to fix, maintenance debt to catch up on, etc. There's no "free lunch" and there's no $10k SUV that's going to be as reliable as a brand new 0 mile $60k SUV.

-TJ

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I don't think it's realistic to think a $10k, 15 year old rig will have *no* issues. But I do think it's possible to buy a ~$10k rig that will be reliable and not break you with *major* failures.

This is normally where I rant and rave about WJs (2nd Gen Jeep Grand Cherokees), and I do think they might be a good option for you. WJ that aren't extensively built aren't $10k anymore, you're talking $5-6k for nice ones. However, my concern is that the 4.7L V8 does drop valves seats, it just does. That's a catastrophic engine failure, and it's not an easy/cheap swap. I've helped 2 friends find and buy WJs with either a new motor already installed (with the upgraded heads to prevent the valve seat problem) or just the updated heads, both in the $5-6k range. That'd leave you almost half of your budget to take care of whatever nagging problems your example has (driver's door wiring harness, blend doors, etc.) and do a mild lift/wheels/tires. Still, it's a bit of a needle in a haystack search to find that 'perfect' one with the engine work taken care of. You could go with the 4.0L I6 which has a better reputation for reliability, but then it comes with a problematic trans, and truth be told I think the V8 is just way better suited to the WJ. What a WJ gets you is solid axles front and rear, with coil-sprung multi-link suspension that articulates very well. If you get a Quadra Drive equipped unit you get active LSDs front and rear (it's an all-mechanical system, but very effective) as well. I'd look for a '02-04 Overland so you get the HO version of the 4.7, you get Quadra Drive, and you get all the interior features. It's cool having auto wipers, dual zone climate control, and other stuff in a $5k car. Also, a clean/straight WJ is very presentable in the office parking lot. Now, what a WJ doesn't get you is a ton of space... they're actually pretty small by modern standards. I think that's an advantage offroad, but if you want to slip *in* it or have a large family, it's not great. It also is always going to have random little nagging problems. The valve covers will leak, you'll fix that, then the blower motor resistor will go out, etc. etc. Other than the aforementioned valve seat problem, none of these are "leave you stranded problems" but it's just the nature of a ~20 year old Chrysler product. So, I guess I went ahead and ranted and raved about WJs anyway, but I'd proceed with caution. ;)

A GX would be an awesome buy too, though around me they're not in the $10k range yet without a lot of miles, around ~300k. Ones in the 150-200k mile range seem like they're still $15k. That said, a 300k mile GX470 might give you less problems than a 150k mile WJ. In fact, a 300k GX almost certainly will be more reliable than a 150k mile WJ, lol.

Monteros seem like the sleeper right now. I just looked and it's hard to find one, even a newer one, for more than like $5k in my area... but they also all seem rougher and to have lived tough lives.

Anyway, I *do* think you can get something where the chances of a major drivetrain failure are lower (not zero), but they will all have random little issues to fix, maintenance debt to catch up on, etc. There's no "free lunch" and there's no $10k SUV that's going to be as reliable as a brand new 0 mile $60k SUV.

-TJ

I'd never buy the 4.7. I love the 4.0 liter 6 cyl.

 

[tjZ06]

I'd never buy the 4.7. I love the 4.0 liter 6 cyl.

Drive a 4.7 WJ, then a 4.0 and you'll change your mind. They just need the heads done to be reliable. The heads themselves are cheap (a set w/ the upgraded seats are ~$700), but it's a bit of a biatch to work in the engine bay of a WJ. The 4.0 just isn't enough for the WJ, and doesn't suit the 'luxury' character of the rig. The 4.0 is barely sufficient for the XJ. The other big thing, is the trans you get with the 4.0 is very problematic. You get away from the valve seat issue, but you get way more trans problems.

-TJ

 

[Arailt]

I have a 2008 GX with ~75k on it and it's been great. It drives nicer than most new cars. The 4.7 Toyota V8 is one of the most reliable motors ever produced (infamous million mile motor). The 5 speed auto has been rock solid too. It has a mechanical Hi/Lo selector. In stock form (minus the running boards) they are very capable vehicles. Full time 4WD with electronic locking center diff. ATRAC is pretty solid on rocks and off camber situations.

It shares almost all of it's mechanical parts with the 4Runner/Prado/FJ Cruiser, so repairs are generally cheap and easy. Aftermarket support for the GX is growing due to the spike in popularity over the past several years. Annnd, it's fun to see people's reactions with you roll into the gas station in a Lexus with sliders and mud terrain tires.

That said, I have had to address several things due to the age and location (northeast) of the car. Those include new front brake calipers (seized), new steering rack, and new exhaust manifolds, among other smaller things.

 

[DevilDodge]

Guess 3 of my rigs are old and used...i. Enjoy them much more...but man they need some work...but I still enjoy it.

 

[tjZ06]

Just as an example, came across this on FB in one of the WJ groups I'm in:

"2002 jeep grand cherokee. 4.7l v8 engine. selec trac transfer case. 4" rough country long arm lift kit. dropped pitman arm. double steering stabilizer. new wheels and tire. cut out fender flares. new front axles and wheel bearings. also new rear wheel bearings. aftermarket front bumper powder coated.front and rear diff oils have been changed and the transfer case. runs and drives great. led headlights. asking 8,600 obo."








This is not the higher-spec Overland (or even Limited) I tend to recommend, but seems like a decent deal. No mention of motor work, so if you were to get it for $8k I'd put the other $2k of your budget into having reman/updated heads done.

The nice thing about the Selec-Trac V8 is it has the 242HD t-case, which is what I swapped into my '03 Overland. The downside, front/rear diffs are open/open. Of course, if that became an issue, lunchbox lockers are cheap.

Anyway, I have no affiliation with this WJ or the seller, just using it as an example of what can be had in your budget...

-TJ

 

[Arailt]

I had a 2000 XJ and a 2001 TJ, both with the 4.0. Owned them both for about 5 years a piece. Really fun and unique vehicles (especially the TJ). Super capable right out of the box. However, I tinkered with them and chased electrical gremlins more often than I wheeled them. The "bulletproof" 4.0 always needed something. Belts, water pumps, alternators. I threw a rod wheeling in my TJ. That was fun. Felt more like owning a race car than a daily driver. One hour of "track" time = five hours of wrench time. Oh, and death wobble

 

[M Rose]

No, you will not find something that old that does not require major maintenance. Period. Even if you get it from New Mexico, there will still be questions about the transmission, and did it ever tow, and how much. If not that, then all belts,hoses, tires and every vaccum line should be replaced or ar least examined for dry rot...the alternator, exhaust, injectors, plugs & wires or coils, ball joints, U-joints should all be checked and or replaced. So, theres either some big things that might need to be done, or a slew of little things. If it's the latter, at least it can be spread out over some time, and hopefully you can do some of it yourself.

hmmm I would have to disagree… we bought an 04 4Runner with 200k on the clock and other than replacing tires, no other maintenance has been done to it. And we got it for 2k under book. So yes it’s possible…ohh and the rig it replaced was a 2000 Ram that I bought with 89k on the clock in 2013 and put another 120k on it before letting it go and the only thing I did to her was replace the water pump and timing gear set at 150k because I was bored and had a slow day at works.

 

[GHCOE]

Did someone say old rigs?