Influencer I
Seems like Battle Born Batteries the darling on YouTuber, influencers and the overland crowd has some damage control to do. Can’t wait to see how the shills, I mean influencers and YouTubers spin this. Overpriced and under built, LOL.
Battle Born Battery troubles
- Thread starter MiamiC70
- Start date
Influencer I
You're not wrong. However, the "Overland" gang and the "Yota bros" will give us no "cred" for using brains instead of credit cards.
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Couple of points. First, they have sold 400,000+ of their batteries, I haven't heard of any fires, just the failures mentioned on his forum and the potential of fires. Second, I bought my Battleborn several years ago based partially on his YT channel when he did the teardown on the battery and was very complimentary of it, along with other positive reviews out there. So while there may be an issue, I'm not yanking mine out yet and replacing just yet. I'm going to watch this issue and decide later. My camper has been down plenty of rough roads over probably 50,000 or 60,000 miles (2nd vehicle so hard to know exact # when I replaced AGM with the Lithium) and zero problems. FYI, here's that original video. $950 "Battle Born" Battery Tear Down
Influencer I
Search YouTube for last 30 days. Myriad of videos about it. Wouldn’t be the first time a company cut corners.
Member III
I'm not going to bash battle born for that. The video shows they double nutted the connection. Maybe a shake washer under it would have been a good thing. Like anything, it takes time to find the flaws. What made me sad was, the guy who did the video didn't analyze the issue, he just pointed out the obvious heat damage. That tells me he is just another utube actor and not someone I would trust for analysis. Did the nut's come loose or did vibration wear the board where the stud went through? What is the board material? Is the issue caused by more current flow than the post can flow?
Next, how is battle born handling this? Are they stepping up or ignoring it? Those are the real questions.
Before I condemn them, those are the answers I want. Also, how many of the people who seem to have a similar issue actually have the same issue and not one they created by their connection failing.
Would I be upset if my 1k lithium battery did that? Yes. That's why I don't spend 1k on a battery. Granted they did add in some nice features, most of which I don't need and wont pay for. Meanwhile my two $200 China batteries have been great. All I added was a heat blanket for cold weather. They already had good BMS systems with high and low temp cut off. Their both about five years old and are put through the wringer constantly.
Next, how is battle born handling this? Are they stepping up or ignoring it? Those are the real questions.
Before I condemn them, those are the answers I want. Also, how many of the people who seem to have a similar issue actually have the same issue and not one they created by their connection failing.
Would I be upset if my 1k lithium battery did that? Yes. That's why I don't spend 1k on a battery. Granted they did add in some nice features, most of which I don't need and wont pay for. Meanwhile my two $200 China batteries have been great. All I added was a heat blanket for cold weather. They already had good BMS systems with high and low temp cut off. Their both about five years old and are put through the wringer constantly.
not sure what the surprise is...
lithium batteries have had serious issues as far back as I can remember. 10+ years ago there were recalls on the lithium powered razor scooters because they would catch on fire and that even made national news. then the lithium hoverboard came out and it was catching on fire and I cant even count how many news reports on lithium batteries in laptops catching on fire and even hurting people pretty bad. I know some carriers will not transport any item with lithium batteries in it. even in more recent times, PLENTY of news reports showing lithium batteries in electric cars catching on fire when the garage flooded and the water ignited the batteries and ended up burned down the entire house. even news reports of teslas catching on fire due to lithium batteries.
as far as Battle Born goes, its a subsidiary of Dragonfly Energy Holdings. it has numerous investors and by being a "holding company", liability is reduced. with a lot of different entities sitting at the dinner table, profits are going to be the main concern. look at the structure of a holding company and you'll see that its structured primarily for profit and reduced liability. also, with that many different investors, its a lot harder to make changes versus a smaller company that doesn't have to drag tail trying to get a dozen people to agree on something other than making profit. have that structure combined with a product that has serious problems, like lithium batteries, and there cant help but be problems like this.
now, playing the devil's advocate, there is of course a flip side. with more investors, there should also be more money available to fix problems and more people to brainstorm solutions. curious to see how it plays out and if there is much press covering this later on
personally, I do like lithium batteries and I own a lot of them...HOWEVER, after knowing what I've witnessed over the last 12-15 yrs, I keep my lithium outside in a building where they will do minimal damage should a problem occur. there is NO WAY I would have lithium batteries inside my vehicle or camp trailers. I still use AGM batteries for my camp trailers.
lithium batteries have had serious issues as far back as I can remember. 10+ years ago there were recalls on the lithium powered razor scooters because they would catch on fire and that even made national news. then the lithium hoverboard came out and it was catching on fire and I cant even count how many news reports on lithium batteries in laptops catching on fire and even hurting people pretty bad. I know some carriers will not transport any item with lithium batteries in it. even in more recent times, PLENTY of news reports showing lithium batteries in electric cars catching on fire when the garage flooded and the water ignited the batteries and ended up burned down the entire house. even news reports of teslas catching on fire due to lithium batteries.
as far as Battle Born goes, its a subsidiary of Dragonfly Energy Holdings. it has numerous investors and by being a "holding company", liability is reduced. with a lot of different entities sitting at the dinner table, profits are going to be the main concern. look at the structure of a holding company and you'll see that its structured primarily for profit and reduced liability. also, with that many different investors, its a lot harder to make changes versus a smaller company that doesn't have to drag tail trying to get a dozen people to agree on something other than making profit. have that structure combined with a product that has serious problems, like lithium batteries, and there cant help but be problems like this.
now, playing the devil's advocate, there is of course a flip side. with more investors, there should also be more money available to fix problems and more people to brainstorm solutions. curious to see how it plays out and if there is much press covering this later on
personally, I do like lithium batteries and I own a lot of them...HOWEVER, after knowing what I've witnessed over the last 12-15 yrs, I keep my lithium outside in a building where they will do minimal damage should a problem occur. there is NO WAY I would have lithium batteries inside my vehicle or camp trailers. I still use AGM batteries for my camp trailers.
Member III
Lets not forget the "Samsung" phone and laptop debacle.
I agree with grub for mounting location. I would love to fit my batteries in the trailer. They sit in the box on the tongue. One of my buddies lost his travel trailer to a lithium fire. Parked outside in an Arizona heat wave. Temps inside the trailer were high enough to ignite them. Of course, us desert dwellers know better than to keep a lithium jump pack in our storage. Mine stays in an ammo can. Google search those igniting in summer heat.
I agree with grub for mounting location. I would love to fit my batteries in the trailer. They sit in the box on the tongue. One of my buddies lost his travel trailer to a lithium fire. Parked outside in an Arizona heat wave. Temps inside the trailer were high enough to ignite them. Of course, us desert dwellers know better than to keep a lithium jump pack in our storage. Mine stays in an ammo can. Google search those igniting in summer heat.
Influencer I
I mean at least you don't have to worry about where to cook your hotdogs when on the road
Member III
SO... What Battleborn is saying is, If you move too much current, they installed a safety feature to keep your battery from igniting?
Sound about right?
These customers are pissed because this safety feature has engaged when they moved too much current?
My first question here is, "did the battery ignite or did the post and a section of the board absorb all the heat before it got to the cells"? Based on the video evidence, I would say yes, it absorbed all the heat.
I'm not saying I agree with this design but they included this for a reason and it also seems people have been over currenting the device, seeing an issue and removing the battery. Isn't that's what is suppose to happen? You pull the battery when it no longer works AND you see discoloration telling you there may be something else going on that caused a huge amount of current to flow?
"If" the information posted is accurate, this is what we have
1. The battery stops working
2. You notice discoloration around the positive post
3. The positive post is now loose
4. You remove the battery
5. "Bonus feature" The battery doesn't catch fire and burn your vehicle to the ground.
You cant rely on a temperature rating alone. You also need BTU. If we had one of these batteries, all the spec's and enough time we could see exactly how much heat (quantity-BTU) was being produced. Next we would calculate how much was needed to ignite the battery's. NOW we can decide if the thermal protection device is a failed design or not. So far it seems it worked.
FYI, "Sparks" while moving the post only means the connection breaking. Any heat there is dissipated into the air. The sparks make for a good show. The sparks will add heat but will cool fast when the connection breaks. A failure would be the post "Welding" itself back and allowing current to flow again. This will produce heat.
The customer saw the failure and pulled the battery out. This sounds like success to me. The U-Tuber gave the impression he was contacted by the customer and shipped the battery before the customer contacted battle born. Why would someone immediately contact a U-Tuber rather than the manufacture?
We know this because the U-Tuber made a second video mocking the feature and only then did he post what Battle Born wrote back. OR...did he withhold that info so he could do another show?
There was a failure and the customer saw it. What caused this failure we will never know because for some reason we are only given partial info that leads to only one conclusion.
Two facts we do have are, a U-Tuber doing an analysis incorrectly and a battery with a burned thermal protection device.
Again, I'm not siding either way without proper information.
EDIT. I also needed to add, we don't know if the insulator breaks down over time causing this issue. It still wont catch fire. This could be intended (or not) to give a "lifespan" to the battery. We see this on cell phone's. The battery starts loosing charge over time causing you to replace the battery or phone. All batteries have a lifetime measured in "cycles". When you approach the limit, the battery looses capacity. That wont cause the washer/post to break down but the washer/post issue here could be an intended design or a flaw that only shows up after a few years.
Sound about right?
These customers are pissed because this safety feature has engaged when they moved too much current?
My first question here is, "did the battery ignite or did the post and a section of the board absorb all the heat before it got to the cells"? Based on the video evidence, I would say yes, it absorbed all the heat.
I'm not saying I agree with this design but they included this for a reason and it also seems people have been over currenting the device, seeing an issue and removing the battery. Isn't that's what is suppose to happen? You pull the battery when it no longer works AND you see discoloration telling you there may be something else going on that caused a huge amount of current to flow?
"If" the information posted is accurate, this is what we have
1. The battery stops working
2. You notice discoloration around the positive post
3. The positive post is now loose
4. You remove the battery
5. "Bonus feature" The battery doesn't catch fire and burn your vehicle to the ground.
You cant rely on a temperature rating alone. You also need BTU. If we had one of these batteries, all the spec's and enough time we could see exactly how much heat (quantity-BTU) was being produced. Next we would calculate how much was needed to ignite the battery's. NOW we can decide if the thermal protection device is a failed design or not. So far it seems it worked.
FYI, "Sparks" while moving the post only means the connection breaking. Any heat there is dissipated into the air. The sparks make for a good show. The sparks will add heat but will cool fast when the connection breaks. A failure would be the post "Welding" itself back and allowing current to flow again. This will produce heat.
The customer saw the failure and pulled the battery out. This sounds like success to me. The U-Tuber gave the impression he was contacted by the customer and shipped the battery before the customer contacted battle born. Why would someone immediately contact a U-Tuber rather than the manufacture?
We know this because the U-Tuber made a second video mocking the feature and only then did he post what Battle Born wrote back. OR...did he withhold that info so he could do another show?
There was a failure and the customer saw it. What caused this failure we will never know because for some reason we are only given partial info that leads to only one conclusion.
Two facts we do have are, a U-Tuber doing an analysis incorrectly and a battery with a burned thermal protection device.
Again, I'm not siding either way without proper information.
EDIT. I also needed to add, we don't know if the insulator breaks down over time causing this issue. It still wont catch fire. This could be intended (or not) to give a "lifespan" to the battery. We see this on cell phone's. The battery starts loosing charge over time causing you to replace the battery or phone. All batteries have a lifetime measured in "cycles". When you approach the limit, the battery looses capacity. That wont cause the washer/post to break down but the washer/post issue here could be an intended design or a flaw that only shows up after a few years.
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Advocate I
I see the defenders of BB's honor have arrived.
Will Prowse is well-known and well-respected in the solar community. He's not some random "YouTube Actor."
Distortion/melting as "thermal protection" is laughable. If the only issue was the terminal disconnecting that would be one thing, but that's not what's happening. One user even recorded the terminal hitting 560F because of the short. It does not work as BB tries to justify it, it is a defect and a fire hazard. Period. Not only does the terminal become discolored due to heat, the cells themselves are getting hot enough to damage their jackets. BB claims they do this to prevent thermal run-away when this could actually trigger a fire itself.
Additionally, nobody can claim that this issue has never caused a fire. BB doesn't know, none of us know. The causes of vehicle fires are never investigated with such detail as to determine the exact cause of a fire unless there's death/injury and/or arson is suspected, as such an internal battery short, which is what is happening here, could easily be overlooked. It's not a safety feature. It's a short. BB didn't use thermal breakers or fusible links here, which would make sense. No, they built batteries with a flaw that can result in fire or damage and are trying to come up with an excuse that people will buy. Seems some folks are buying their BS.
BB batteries are overpriced and poorly designed. If BB wanted to prevent thermal runaway there are cheap and well-proven ways to do this, none of them involve allowing a piece of plastic to melt in the hopes that it will trigger a full disconnect, which it's obviously NOT doing as they are trying to claim. It's a bogus excuse with no legitimate defense because it's nonsense.
Will Prowse is well-known and well-respected in the solar community. He's not some random "YouTube Actor."
Distortion/melting as "thermal protection" is laughable. If the only issue was the terminal disconnecting that would be one thing, but that's not what's happening. One user even recorded the terminal hitting 560F because of the short. It does not work as BB tries to justify it, it is a defect and a fire hazard. Period. Not only does the terminal become discolored due to heat, the cells themselves are getting hot enough to damage their jackets. BB claims they do this to prevent thermal run-away when this could actually trigger a fire itself.
Additionally, nobody can claim that this issue has never caused a fire. BB doesn't know, none of us know. The causes of vehicle fires are never investigated with such detail as to determine the exact cause of a fire unless there's death/injury and/or arson is suspected, as such an internal battery short, which is what is happening here, could easily be overlooked. It's not a safety feature. It's a short. BB didn't use thermal breakers or fusible links here, which would make sense. No, they built batteries with a flaw that can result in fire or damage and are trying to come up with an excuse that people will buy. Seems some folks are buying their BS.
BB batteries are overpriced and poorly designed. If BB wanted to prevent thermal runaway there are cheap and well-proven ways to do this, none of them involve allowing a piece of plastic to melt in the hopes that it will trigger a full disconnect, which it's obviously NOT doing as they are trying to claim. It's a bogus excuse with no legitimate defense because it's nonsense.
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Member III
OW.
Seems I offended someone with my opinions.
If you actually read my first statement I said I not only don't own one but would never own one. Second, don't confuse an analysis for defending. I don't know who this U-Tuber is but based on what I see on that one video, he not only sensationalizes but limits facts. Number of viewers doesn't make him knowledgeable only popular with a certain group.
Hmm...fuses are laughable?...Uhh ok.
Rather than ranting, find a flaw in my hypothesis? If you can, great. That just means I missed something. Also as I stated, you cant form a good opinion based on lack of facts
How exactly would you diagnose this?
FYI. Battle Born is not poorly designed. Spend some time researching batteries and actually building your own packs with several features. This is something I can do.
No. This is not a short. This is the result of high current flow. If a fuse burns, its not a bad fuse. The fuse did what it was designed to do. Melt.
Lets see. It melted and limited the current flow and made it obvious there was an issue.
I will say this again. I do not own a Battle Born battery, I would never buy one because I don't need to pay for features they equip their batteries with.
No where did I defend them. I only pointed out the data that was given then added my opinion based on my experience. If that makes me a defender then I guess I didn't know the actual meaning. As for my use of the title "U-Tuber" if anything he did actually impressed me, maybe I would give him credit. The couple of videos I did watch were about areas of my expertise and I wasn't impressed. It seems he just sorts facts like all the others I've seen and plays the part. Do I call him a fraud? NO. If I knew him personally I would know if he was or wasn't. I don't know him so all I can do is give what my impression.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I guess I know better than to bring my expertise into a forum bashing session. I don't really care about these batteries either way. I do know for a fact, doom and gloom are what people want to see, not success.
If this is going to turn personal, then I'll drop out of this discussion. I had hoped for a good logical thread, not a witch hunt. Then again, this is a forum and I would expect no less.
Influencer I
The Battle Born Batteries white knight has entered the conversation.
It’s a flaw in design and or execution. Possibly / probably a cost savings because even on ridiculously overpriced “overland” gear you have to squeeze every penny.
It’s a flaw in design and or execution. Possibly / probably a cost savings because even on ridiculously overpriced “overland” gear you have to squeeze every penny.
Advocate I
I'm not offended so much as I am flabbergasted.
You say you're not defending BB but have no problem making wild excuses for their design flaw.
A fuse that doesn't result in fully disconnecting the circuit when it blows is not a fuse.
Any lithium battery worth buying has proper thermal and over-current protection. The BB doesn't have this here. Relying on an imprecise plastic insulator to precisely melt and fully disconnect the battery due to high current is a fire hazard. What you're saying makes as much sense as using a wire gauge too small on purpose and claiming that when it gets hot and melts due to high current flow that it was intentional. Please.
If you know what thermal runaway is then you know the excuse BB is trying to sell is nonsense. If your terminals are getting hot enough to melt plastic internally due to high current then the battery's OCP is ineffective, defective, or non-existent. A plastic insulator melting is not proper OCP. Additionally, there are thermal sensors within the cell pack to trigger the BMS to disconnect when the cells are too hot or too cold. That is part of thermal runaway protection. Not a piece of plastic between the terminal and bus bar.
To then claim BB isn't poorly designed based on what we've seen...sorry, but you sound like someone that actually doesn't know what they're talking about and is making excuses for a company whose products you don't use.
If you find Will Prowse sensational and some YouTube actor while then claiming that you know enough to build your own packs...while having never heard of Will Prowse...that doesn't really make sense either. Not that everyone has heard of him, but I'd be surprised that anyone claiming to have DIY experience with solar and batteries hasn't heard of him. It's wild that you're making some off-hand remarks about him or his content while actively admitting you don't know who he is.
What is happening with BB batteries is 100% a short. It's not a short to ground, but it is a short. It's arcing (creating a power surge) and generating heat due to the high resistance created by the poor connection.
Sorry guy, your responses are largely nonsense in this regard and trying to defend BB's poor design is wild. It's clear to me what we're going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. Good luck out there.
most lithium batteries of this size use a BMS (battery management system) that is a microcontroller with specific code that analyzes the inputs from various sensors throughout the battery. pretty much everything is code now...even cordless drills got away from replaceable carbon brushes and went to a series of coils firing in succession all based on sensor input and controlled by a microcontroller. instead of a fusible link that is a one-time thing, a battery can easily have a solid state relay connected to the positive terminal that is controlled by the microcontroller and opened the microsecond one of the sensor inputs exceeds its parameters. some companies use the STM 32 microcontroller, which is about $3 retail, so its not crazy expensive. temp and current sensors are ultra cheap, so it shouldn't be a cost burden to do it right
what I saw in the video with the double nutted connection looked like dookie to me. Battle Born can easily do better...they have a lot of resources and seem to have a fan base, so maybe this is just a bad oversight that somehow slid past QC? they obviously put a lot of money in promoting and advertising, so they are aware of things...
lot of stuff like this out there now. I've torn into some different LED lights and have seen some crazy stuff that is being sold to the public in large quantities that is crappy for no real reason. different topic, but I recently bought a shop vac from home depot and it quit working after a few weeks. I took it apart and the solder connection was a cold joint and was crap from the factory. as I'm noticing with a lot of things now, the quality of the materials is better, BUT the actual workmanship is garbage.
in the end, if you are going to sell a battery for $900 when similar ones are going for $300...your product better be above reproach...
Advocate I
Yup, sorry if it sounded like I was implying those mechanical safeguards are standard fare in lithium batteries. I was using them as an example of "proper" mechanical thermal protection devices that would have made more sense than what BB is claiming their design does, if they were going for the "dumb" thermal protection route. Absolutely, any decent lithium battery is going to have a decent BMS and associated sensors to handle OCP, OTP, etc.
At no point should any battery rely on a mechanical/physical deformation of a substrate to trigger a circuit disconnect to try and prevent a larger issue.
Member III
Again I was not defending and its obvious to me your knowledge is lacking. Wild excuses? You obviously don't understand thermodynamics (properties of heat). If you did, my over simplified wording would have not only made sense but you could have expanded on it. We mock what we don't understand.
Will Prose?
Nope don't know him. I didn't get my degree from U-Tube either. If that's where you personally learn from, good for you.
I will not turn this into a personal bashing thread as it seems you want to.
I was hoping for a good debate but it's obvious which side is lacking once the other makes it personal.
I attempted to explain how their protection device worked. That didn't mean I agree with it and I also stated that I didn't agree with it (more than once).
You say I don't seem to know what I'm talking about, I'm not going to post my resume and my experience in this field. You would just look for a way to mock that too.
My closing advice here is, don't believe everything you see on U-Tube. If something like this battery nonsense bothers you, go learn how these things work. Don't be another one with a U-Tube degree.
Advocate I
Prowse.
I know how thermodynamics work, the weak excuse BB is giving and you trying to defend it (or explain how it could possibly be a safe and reliable solution) is indeed wild. No personal attacks involved, it's basic physics and electronic systems. There is no defense or excuse for this "design" to exist within a battery and your "simplified wording" is indeed nonsense. You're choosing to side with a company and their poorly-designed product rather than the people explaining why it's a bad and dangerous design, the only explanation for this is that you either don't understand why that is or the physics involved. Thermal circuit breakers use bimetallic strips to trip if it becomes too hot due to over-current, that is a proper use of deformation due to temperature to trip a circuit breaker.
The fact that the plastic substrate in the BB batteries melts/deforms enough to cause a short but not completely disconnect the cells and instead makes the situation worse speaks for itself. Anyone defending or trying to justify that design after seeing the numerous complaints of high terminal temp and examples of what is happening has no business claiming others have no idea what they're talking about.
@smritte and @Hogan ...y'all are both right.
the main thing is that we are working together as a community here to bring problems like this to each other's attention. I'm already full on my quota for Chinese lithium batteries...BUT if I was in the market for just one more and IF I was looking at battle Born, its good that this would have been brought to my attention. it also serves as a reminder to be vigilant when shopping for things like lithium batteries and to never get complacent by thinking that by paying more automatically means I'll have the best product.
as consumers, we get bent over daily by the government, corporations, ex-wives, etc. the best any of us can hope for is to die in our sleep...and hopefully not die in our sleep due to a lithium battery fire..
the main thing is that we are working together as a community here to bring problems like this to each other's attention. I'm already full on my quota for Chinese lithium batteries...BUT if I was in the market for just one more and IF I was looking at battle Born, its good that this would have been brought to my attention. it also serves as a reminder to be vigilant when shopping for things like lithium batteries and to never get complacent by thinking that by paying more automatically means I'll have the best product.
as consumers, we get bent over daily by the government, corporations, ex-wives, etc. the best any of us can hope for is to die in our sleep...and hopefully not die in our sleep due to a lithium battery fire..
