ABS and trails.

[Thelgord]

A topic has come up on another board about ABS and whether or not it should be disabled while off-road. I would love to hear what every thinks about this.

 

[Smileyshaun]

I personally hate abs, especially whenoff-road. it's fine when it's dry out but as soon as wet weather hits and mud wet leaves and everything else to me it just feels like it increases stopping distance tremendously.

 

[Googledave]

I removed the abs from my jk rock crawler and was never happier. Much more control. I also removed it from my fzj80 and have also never been happier. I haven’t wheeled the 80 yet, but the jk I wheeled hard 2-3 times a week and never trailered her to any events. I put 150,00 miles on that rig without abs and never once had an issue. Oh and she was on 37’s and a two door.

 

[Lindenwood]

*Shrug* Never had an issue with it, but I have never been going fast enough on a muddy trail to even be worried about my stopping distance. However, slowly sliding down a muddy slope, the ABS allowed much more directional control (i.e. not sliding off the road) than trying to manually pump or ride the brakes.

 

[Mojavewanderer]

I had a 2003 Tacoma, and the first time I went wheeling in it the abs scared me half to death. I did eventually get used to it, but wasn’t sorry to lose the abs when I got my current rig a 1980 Toyota pickup. No modern technology on that thing.

 

[Anak]

I am happy that my '96 Cherokee does not have ABS. I have a '95 2wd that I will be converting to 4wd. It has ABS. When I get through with the conversion it will not have ABS.

 

[Lindenwood]

Could any of you articulate your specific issues? I get the impression most are frustrated with various electronic stability systems, rather than the simple ability to lock up the tires at will.

 

[Anak]

For me it is a matter of predictable versus unpredictable behavior.

It is as if the vehicle had two drivers, giving competing input into the equation. Sorry, but I would rather it was just me doing the driving. I don't need an electronic nanny.

 

[[DO]Ron]

A while back I found a good tutorial about how to use ABS on snow / off road.. you need to use it diffrently then a vehicle without it.
I never had a problem with ABS, though I don't go rock crawling or had needed the ABS in any other situation then when driving in a bunch of snow.

 

[Lindenwood]

For me it is a matter of predictable versus unpredictable behavior.

It is as if the vehicle had two drivers, giving competing input into the equation. Sorry, but I would rather it was just me doing the driving. I don't need an electronic nanny.

So, specifically, you would rather be able to use the brakes to skid on command in a straight line, and not being able to do this feels like a second driver? I am not trying to pry--I really want to understand your perspective. But, it still sounds like you are describing some form of electronic stability or traction control, and not simply ABS.

If your problem is with traction / stability control, we should be very clear on that. Because, threads like this are read by 17 year old kids who will then go yank the ABS circuits out of their trucks without even really understanding what they gained and lost.

 

[Winterpeg]

ABS increases stopping distance. Period.

It's designed to maintain steering ability when the wheels lock up.

You should NOT have ABS when you are on gravel or sand or pretty much any other offroad scenario.

You need the wheels to lock up to push a mound of dirt ahead of you to stop sooner.... dig in so to speak.

ABS is really designed to be on pavement... and not in the winter time (in my opinion).

I disable my ABS in the winter (yank the fuse, which also disables the traction control which we aren't discussing in this thread but it is related).

Attempting to stop on a sheet of ice with ABS is pretty scary when you are coming up to an intersection and it's becoming apparent you are going to end up in the middle of it.
(yes, slow down and plan ahead!)

When I want to stop I want to stop. I may not have an avenue of escape.... so steering is a moot point.

Everyone needs to really learn how to use "threshold braking". That is, applying brake pressure right up to the lock-up point but NOT locking them up.

A perfect example of needing to stop sooner...
A lady decided to turn in front of me when I was going 80 km/h.... I slammed on the brakes because I was so close but because of the ABS I didn't slow down much prior to hitting her. I was able to steer.... but as I attempted to steer around her she steered in the same direction and I t-boned her.
She was completely at fault and evidently didn't see me and I didn't see her initiating the turn (cars blocking view).... so I couldn't plan to avoid her.... but fault doesn't really matter... what matters is I could have slowed more and caused less damage and injury if the ABS wasn't there.

A quick google search and the first article here explains it better than me probably.....
https://carsafetyphysics.weebly.com/anti-lock-brakes-vs-normal-brakes--benefits-and-limitations.html

ABS VS NON- ABS BREAKING
Anti-lock braking system (ABS) is a system that helps prevent the wheels of your car from locking, thus preventing your car from skidding out of control. ABS also allows you to steer your car while breaking strongly. In wet or icy conditions, where your car has less traction, ABS prevents your car from sliding and crashing as well as maintaining traction and allowing you to steer out of the way of obstacles. ABS has all of these many benefits however many car owners prefer braking without ABS.

ABS also has many limitations. On gravel or snow, hard breaking which causes the wheels to lock up is very effective as the locked wheels easily dig into the snow and gravel, stopping the vehicle. With ABS braking, however, the brakes don't lock up and stopping distance is therefore increased, causing the likelihood of a collision to increase. Some experienced drivers also dislike ABS as they know how to stop in an emergency without locking the wheels in an even shorter distance than with ABS. Some drivers complain that ABS sometimes activates when the brakes are applied very lightly if the car is on a bumpy surface. As most cars equipped with ABS do not have a function that turns ABS off, the people who prefer normal braking to ABS braking do not have the option of turning the function off.

https://www.wheels.ca/news/abs-brakes-can-add-to-stopping-distances/


Now picture yourself on the edge of a cliff ledge... having a good time wheeling and you slip a bit and need to come to a stop and the ABS kicks in and you are not able to stop.

The FJ thought this through.... and in 4LO the ABS is disabled as well as all the traction control nannies.

 

[Lindenwood]

Yup, ABS does increase stopping distance in low-traction situations--I dont think that was ever in question. I guess I must be a pansy because, like I said, I've never been racing around fast enough offroad to need to be able to skid to a stop :P .

*edit*

I also have to say I am very skeptical that your average driver would have been any more likely to save the day without ABS in your situation.

And, more generally, are all of you saying that the reason you dislike ABS is because of the increased stopping distances on loose surfaces?

 

[94Cruiser]

I'm thankful for my CDL because it kills ABS automatically. And anytime it's wet or gravel, i have the CDL activated

Sent from my Nexus 6P using OB Talk mobile app

 

[Anak]

ABS increases stopping distance. Period.

It's designed to maintain steering ability when the wheels lock up.

You should NOT have ABS when you are on gravel or sand or pretty much any other offroad scenario.

You need the wheels to lock up to push a mound of dirt ahead of you to stop sooner.... dig in so to speak.

ABS is really designed to be on pavement... and not in the winter time (in my opinion).

I second the above, plus any kind of pulse braking on a curve on a surface with dicey traction is likely to be the last straw.

I learned to drive on a hard packed dirt road with sand on top of the hard pack. It wasn't that way by design, but that is what you would get during the dry season, and around here it is generally always dry season. It wasn't quite as bad as what you get if you put sand over asphalt, but it did a good job of teaching me how to corner and brake without going into a slide. I don't want the car to initiate any actions on its own, thank you.

 

[Winterpeg]

Yup, ABS does increase stopping distance in low-traction situations--I dont think that was ever in question. I guess I must be a pansy because, like I said, I've never been racing around fast enough offroad to need to be able to skid to a stop :P .

*edit*

I also have to say I am very skeptical that your average driver would have been any more likely to save the day without ABS in your situation.

And, more generally, are all of you saying that the reason you dislike ABS is because of the increased stopping distances on loose surfaces?

I'm saying having ABS still active when you are offroad is downright dangerous.

You don't have to be going fast to need to use the brakes and have them work. My example above was just 1 on-road example and my point was to be able to bleed more speed off prior to impact would have been nice. This was my most blatant example on-road I could think of.

I do all my offroading in 4Lo... so my top speed is typically 20 mph... and it's very rare to get going that fast even. My FJ is a big heavy beast and I have no interest in going fast in the rough stuff. The only times I get going a bit faster is on an actual gravel road and that's in 4Hi or 2Hi.... or one that at least resembles a road. I don't consider this actual offroading though. I've left my ABS enabled lots of times... and regretted it on more than one occasion.

ABS was never designed for offroad.
Toyota knows this as well.... that's why as soon as I go into 4Lo it's disabled. If it didn't do that I would have to figure out the wiring and install a switch myself.

There are times I've been out of the hard stuff on a trail, and the rest could be done in 2wd... I've aired up and drove in 2wd for the last bit of the trail. I would go over a couple nasty bumps and what Toyota calls "emergency brake assist" kicks in with only a minor brake application and you come to a skidding panic stop.... or ABS kicks in when I'm on the gravel and I can't stop when I want.

It sounds like you already have your mind made up and no amount of information will change it though.

To the OP.... get offroad and test it out for yourself if you need to. It will be very evident.

 

[94Cruiser]

Here's a young Andrew St. Pierre White demonstrating the center differential....


Sent from my Nexus 6P using OB Talk mobile app

 

[Lindenwood]

I'm saying having ABS still active when you are offroad is downright dangerous.

You don't have to be going fast to need to use the brakes and have them work. My example above was just 1 on-road example and my point was to be able to bleed more speed off prior to impact would have been nice. This was my most blatant example on-road I could think of.

I do all my offroading in 4Lo... so my top speed is typically 20 mph... and it's very rare to get going that fast even. My FJ is a big heavy beast and I have no interest in going fast in the rough stuff. The only times I get going a bit faster is on an actual gravel road and that's in 4Hi or 2Hi.... or one that at least resembles a road. I don't consider this actual offroading though. I've left my ABS enabled lots of times... and regretted it on more than one occasion.

ABS was never designed for offroad.
Toyota knows this as well.... that's why as soon as I go into 4Lo it's disabled. If it didn't do that I would have to figure out the wiring and install a switch myself.

There are times I've been out of the hard stuff on a trail, and the rest could be done in 2wd... I've aired up and drove in 2wd for the last bit of the trail. I would go over a couple nasty bumps and what Toyota calls "emergency brake assist" kicks in with only a minor brake application and you come to a skidding panic stop.... or ABS kicks in when I'm on the gravel and I can't stop when I want.

It sounds like you already have your mind made up and no amount of information will change it though.

To the OP.... get offroad and test it out for yourself if you need to. It will be very evident.

I am a Mensan, with a physics background, to include teaching it. This is before I joined the AF as an officer, and before my 4 deployments and 1300 combat hours hunting bad people. I also recently finished a Master's research thesis. Most of my adult life has revolved directly around evidence-based pursuits and management of truth, so please don't presume you have any idea of what I am willing to accept, and what I am not.

FWIW, the NHTSA disagrees with your assertion that ABS makes driving on ice inherently less safe. On their ice analog, stopping distances were reduced by 10% with ABS (compared to skidding tires), and ABS prevented notable vehicle yaw in all cases.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182&ved=2ahUKEwjXt4G8xbzbAhVFs1kKHTMpBGwQFjABegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1E3wZsD8k4k2rj8UP4r7wX

So, had you locked up the tires and tried to steer as you did, you would have likely ended up impacting at some non-frontal angle, which is inherently more dangerous (both for the rollover risk, and because the human body can handle much less force in the lateral direction). Not to mention, had she not also maneuvered her vehicle at the last instant, your ABS would have been the only thing allowing you to actually execute your initial reaction to steer around her.

In any case, having ABS does not at all preclude driver threshold braing. In your accident, would have in been perfectly free to self-modulate your brake pressure to theoretically reduce stopping distance, which you yourself argue is something we should all do. This is not at all a slight at your driving abilities.--I honestly think very few drivers (myself included) could reliably outperform ABS in unexpected emergency stops and maneuvers. This example further supports the industry-wide assumption that everyday drivers cannot be expected to reliably brake in a way that outperforms ABS in unexpected emergency stops and evasions.

Overall, I am trying to prevent, like I said, exaggerated information on the internet causing some 16 year old brand new driver to rip the ABS out of his hand-me-down SUV because a few guys on the internet said it was dangerous.

Nobody has argued that there can't be some advantage to having no ABS in offroad situations. I must say wholeheartedly disagree that it is "downright dangerous," but even the study I cited showed noticably increased stopping distances in gravel which I never denied. However, blanket, hugely-negative statements about the nature of ABS must be tempered with the reality that ABS makes the roads safer (that study articulates an 8% reduction in crash involvement with ABS-equipped SUVs).

Bottom Line:
To recommend folks experiment with it offroad is great. To recommend a way to disable ABS for offroad situations is perfectly valid. To justify completely removing ABS on a road vehicle by implying that ABS is actually more dangerous in all conditions except dry pavement is both incorrect and, quite honestly, irresponsible.

 

[Winterpeg]

Offroad I said it was dangerous.

On road I gave my opinion and 1 experience. In that scenario I was simply stating I would have liked to NOT hit her so hard. Hitting her was inevitable.... How hard is debatable.

We're mashing a few different scenarios together here.

I'm not going to put my resume online here... But I've spent a fair bit of time on and offroad and have more training than the majority as well.

This would be a great debate in front a fire with a beer.... Here it just sounds like a pissing match, lol.... Although I'm trying not to give that impression.

Fire me a pm if you want me to clarify the parts I'm being vague about.

 

[Lindenwood]

 

[smritte]

Wow.
Good arguments from both sides. I'll throw my 2 cent's in here as well as what I know about the subject. I have worked on, had classes in, and teach ABS class's starting in the early 80's.
The issue we have here is ABS was never designed for off road. That's why on most vehicles it's disabled in some form of 4wd. Now don't confuse ABS with some of the modern traction control/automated suspension systems. Their all similar but it's better to stay with just ABS here.
We have to take into consideration the fact that most of us have thrown the factory calibration right out the window when we modified our vehicles. Bottom line is ABS works by counting pulses off of sensors based on wheel speed. All it wants to do is make the pulses the same. It reacts by seeing one or several of the pulses being less than the others "After" it sees stop light input. When it see's what it considers an issue it (basically) closes a valve so you cannot influence that wheel or wheels and removes the brake pressure then reapplies as needed. When it see's the pulses the same, it gives you control back.
That's ABS in a nut shell. How did we throw out the calibration? We changed tire size and some could argue we added weight which effects kinetic energy. Now, are all ABS systems the same? NO. Do all ABS systems work similar? Yes. Does ABS care where you drive? NO. All it does is count pulses. Whats the real difference? Software and sensor's. How many and what type.
Was ABS engineered correctly in the early days? Ehh, it was ok. The biggest problems were part quality and the guys working on it needed proper electronic training. Most of your myth/rumors are from that time.

Now that that's out of the way. The question here is should I disconnect it? That's a personal preference. I will not disconnect ABS on a street driven vehicle. Off Road? How much did you mod your vehicle, how do you drive it and does your system disable in 4WD?
I know someone always brings up that one guy or that one time where ABS has caused some horrific thing. In the early 90's the media was all over how bad ABS was and how it increased traffic deaths. They sited some statistic that proved it. Of course they left a small but important fact out. I think everyone should take a statistics class just to see how you can skew them.

What I don't want to see happen is people just ripping the stuff out. If your building an Off Road only toy then you may consider it. My definition of a toy is not slapping some 37's on your Toyota. I'm talking dedicated, possibly trailered rig.

There's my 2 cents. Hopfully I didnt ruffle