Snow - To Chain Or Not To Chain

[Lassen]

Though mild right at the present, we did get a decent amount of snow in the Sierra Nevadas recently and it had me thinking as I have heard all sorts of rumors and such about when you should or when you are required to use snow chains on a few of the California highways.

I have heard the following:

1) If you drive a 4WD vehicle which has tires that have "M+S" stamped on it, chains are never required.

2) If you drive a 4WD vehicle which has tires that say "M+S" stamped on it, chains aren't required unless CHP says ALL vehicles must have chains on.

3) If you have a 4WD vehicle and must use chains, chains should be installed on front wheels only.

4) If you drive a 4WD vehicle and chains must be installed, chains should be installed on the rear tires.

5). If you drive a 4WD vehicle and must install chains, ALL tires must have chains.

Anyone out there that might clarify this?

 

[Saints&Sailors]

I went through this same conundrum last year after moving to California. What I've gathered from my research and also from personal experience driving to/from Tahoe regularly to go snowboarding is this:

• There are three different "tiers" of restrictions that CalTrans put into place (R1, R2 and R3). Basically, from my experience, R1 seemed to almost always be in effect on the mountain passes. If you have 4wd (or AWD) you don't have to do anything. R2 is when it is actually snowing pretty good - if you have 4wd and M+S tires you just have to have it in 4wd (I did have them ask me a couple times at the checkpoints if I was in 4wd). R3 rarely happens - generally they just close the road. In my opinion, if the road is R3 and they are making 4wd vehicles with M+S tires chain up, you probably don't want to be on the road anyway. I wouldn't trust the other drivers to exercise the same degree of caution as I do so I would look for a hotel to spend the night and wait for the pass to get better.
  Reference: http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/chcontrl.htm
• Technically, under R2, you are still supposed to carry chains. I've never had anyone ask or check if I had chains. I carry one set of them anyway, just in case. The only time I've ever used them was in my driveway when it was 60 degrees - the first time I installed them I wanted to do it on my terms, not when it's 20 degrees and snowing so I did a test run to see how they went on. I highly recommend doing this if you own chains.
• I put a lot of thought into the whole "chains on the front or the rear with 4wd" argument, there is a spirited debate about which is better. My opinion is that the rear is better for a short wheelbase vehicle like my Jeep. In a panic braking situation, the rear tires with chains would dig in and at least keep my vehicle straight/under control. If the chains were on the front and I did a panic stop, there is a greater chance that a SWB vehicle with chains on the front will spin (the front tires dig in and want to move slower than the rear tires which would induce a spin). I don't like spinning. I'm also not keen on having a chain break and get tangled up in my steering/front suspension - that could get ugly fast. FWIW, some owner's manuals specify where the chains should go (i.e. front or rear).

If anyone out there disagrees with me, I'd love to hear it. I'm not an expert, just had given some thought and this is the conclusion I came to. Perhaps the consensus on OB is different...

 

[NetDep]

Reading all of the California threads - firearms, chains - I really do wonder if there is ANY aspect of life that California does NOT have a law, and a very complicated and convoluted series of laws and updates about?? Must be fairly frustrating!

 

[expeditionnorth]

Here in VT we can get several feet over the course of a day
needless to say the rural road I live on wont get plowed until later in the evening
4wd only gets you so far in the deep stuff
chains really help get that extra bite, especially since the deep snow has a tendency to lift the vehicle upwards slightly
so I say it cant hurt

 

[O.Dfj]

I have never needed chains on a 4wd with m+s tires in california. I do carry a tow rope for the idiots that go way fast and spin out lol.

 

[Lassen]

Reading all of the California threads - firearms, chains - I really do wonder if there is ANY aspect of life that California does NOT have a law, and a very complicated and convoluted series of laws and updates about?? Must be fairly frustrating!

Yep, the government here gets into pretty much everything. In fact, one thing, but I haven't bothered to confirm this, is when looking for and researching roof rack options, one rack outfitter here in the SF Bay Area told me flat out that in California, the max load allowed on top of a car is 165 pounds...by law. I've never bothered to look it up seeing as how so many of the overlanding community in this state have loads that likely are heavier than 165 lbs.

 

[NetDep]

Yep, the government here gets into pretty much everything. In fact, one thing, but I haven't bothered to confirm this, is when looking for and researching roof rack options, one rack outfitter here in the SF Bay Area told me flat out that in California, the max load allowed on top of a car is 165 pounds...by law. I've never bothered to look it up seeing as how so many of the overlanding community in this state have loads that likely are heavier than 165 lbs.

That 165# thing really hit me. I looked and looked but could not find a California Vehicle Code (CVC) reference but did find an uncited reference from the Cascadia Vehicle Tent site...

"How much weight can my roof rack hold?

Generally 100-200 lbs. By law you are allowed 165 lbs going down the highway.When you are parked (static weight) it is a different story. Read your owners manual to get exact weight limit. If you need a rack system or more capacity any local Thule, Yakima dealer can provide a solution."

Interesting. Interesting since I am going to putting a roof rack on pretty soon.

 

[Lassen]

That 165# thing really hit me. I looked and looked but could not find a California Vehicle Code (CVC) reference but did find an uncited reference from the Cascadia Vehicle Tent site...

"How much weight can my roof rack hold?

Generally 100-200 lbs. By law you are allowed 165 lbs going down the highway.When you are parked (static weight) it is a different story. Read your owners manual to get exact weight limit. If you need a rack system or more capacity any local Thule, Yakima dealer can provide a solution."

Interesting. Interesting since I am going to putting a roof rack on pretty soon.

You know, I think I saw something similar in a brief search when I first heard that. The article I saw cited Thule stuff, but there might be a bias there as, not positive, I believe Thule and Yakima load bars max out at 165#. Is that due to a law or trying to keep costs down or to limit liability issues if people load too much and lose a load?

 

[Saints&Sailors]

Reading all of the California threads - firearms, chains - I really do wonder if there is ANY aspect of life that California does NOT have a law, and a very complicated and convoluted series of laws and updates about?? Must be fairly frustrating!

It's funny you mention this. I actually don't mind it that much. My friends in Colorado wish the state would step in and do something more on I-70 (e.g. something similar to CA's checkpoint model). They are always seeing nasty car wrecks from people who are driving completely shot tires, don't carry chains, and drive way too fast. It ruins everyone's day. I believe in personal responsibility - whenever you do anything (e.g. driving a car, buying a firearm, etc.) you ratchet up your level of responsibility and the law should hold you to that. In the case of chain controls in California, it's fairly simple once you know how the R1, R2, and R3 requirements work, as outlined in my above link. If you don't follow the rules you are being negligent and endangering other people's lives.

 

[RaggedViking]

I was out to Yosemite about 6-7 years ago, and everyone was required to have chains - no matter what vehicle, drive train, or tires you had. I don't know how wide-spread this was.

I echo @expeditionnorth in regards to Vermont: I can't get to my cabin or leave it depending on the snowfall. At the lowest point, we are 3' higher than the road, and there have been times where we've come out and the snow has been higher than that. Thankfully the Fire Chief lives down the street and he NEEDS to be plowed out, which he does - as he does the plowing in town as well.

In Connecticut, where I live full time I have never needed chains, but have them just in case.
Twice I drove my VW Jetta across the state in a blizzard during college and did fine, crapped my pants a few times, but did fine.
I'm so much happier in a higher, more capable vehicle.

 

[expeditionnorth]

You know, I think I saw something similar in a brief search when I first heard that. The article I saw cited Thule stuff, but there might be a bias there as, not positive, I believe Thule and Yakima load bars max out at 165#. Is that due to a law or trying to keep costs down or to limit liability issues if people load too much and lose a load?

most vehicle manufacturers limit the roof load weight to 200lbs

 

[RaggedViking]

most vehicle manufacturers limit the roof load weight to 200lbs

Thule bars are rated up to 165LBS but can carry up to 220-230 before they bend and bow - that's for the steel bars. The Aluminum AeroBlade goes up to 250-260 and neither of them fail at that weight, they just start to deform.
Thule, Yakima, etc. - keep their weight limits low to account for all situations, crosswinds, etc.

The fact of the matter is that vehicle roofs really can't hold more than 80lbs, but because of the structure - A pillar / B pillar, etc. - you can fudge it if you spread the weight out the right way.
You still won't ever see me put a roof top tent on top of a vehicle. I've seen too much proven data to know better. BUT - if you do, do it - make sure you've got 3-4 load bars up there to brace it.

 

[mase001]

I deal with snow too up north at the cabin and fwiw, some rigs are limited on chains

I have a 16 4Runner and they recommend NEVER putting chains on the front tires due to clearance. So the chains on front / chains on all 4 are out for even stock vehicles/tires.

I have K02's on currently and debated buying chains for the rear. I haven't yet and I drove in 10-11" deep snow and the 4Runner did great. I drove slow and it wasn't a terribly long drive before I hit a plowed road but I got zero slip, slide, skid etc in the powder.

Ymmv obviously but right now I'm leaning towards not buying chains. If it gets hairier than 11" I'm probably not going to go driving in it hahaha!