Did you hear? The NPS permit fees for filming ruled unconstitutional

[JCBigler]

Last week a Federal judge, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, ruled that it is unconstitutional for the National Parks service to charge permit fees for commercial film making. This is a huge win for the overlanding community also for those who like to film their adventures.

"Mr. Price’s filmmaking at these parks constitutes a form of expressive speech protected by the First Amendment," she writes in the opinion, adding "the creation of a film must also fall within the ambit of the First Amendment’s protection of freedom of expression. To find otherwise, would artificially disconnect an integral piece of the expressive process of filmmaking."

...

Kollar-Kotelly issued a declaration that the National Park Service's requirements "that those engaged in 'commercial filming' must obtain permits and pay fees are unconstitutional under the First Amendment," and she issued a permanent injunction enjoining the permit and fee requirements for commercial filming and "the prosecution and the imposition of criminal liability thereunder."

National Park Service Can’t Require Permits and Fees for Commercial Filming, Judge Rules

In a huge win for filmmakers, a D.C. federal judge has ruled that it's unconstitutional for the National Park Service to require permits or charge fees for commercial filming on its land.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[Tundracamper]

That is good news. I suspect that would then extend to photography. I wonder if they’ll tackle drones next. Could get interesting.

 

[Boostpowered]

Commercial filming and private filming are 2 different things, I think they are talking more about like national geographic or discovery Channel or some production company filming commercials or shows. I've never heard of needing a permit to film yourself or your family

 

[Boostpowered]

I'd like to know when they are be more transparent about the thousands of missing hikers in national parks and Forrest.

 

[Berkshires]

That is good news. I suspect that would then extend to photography. I wonder if they’ll tackle drones next. Could get interesting.

The ruling did not extend to photography since that was not part of the suit, but in practice, and potential of future lawsuits, I doubt the NPS would go after commercial photographers.

I've been following this case, and read through the 35 page ruling, agree with the sentiment, but find the judge's 1st amendment argument to be a little weak. NPS need to update their rules given changing technology. Originally, the NPS requirement was all about charging large commercial operations (film and video) to pay fees to cover damage, security, and increased ranger time. Small operations, like bloggers, have minimal impact on the park.

 

[smritte]

This makes me wonder if they required a permit for money or to be able to track the commercial film crews going in and making a mess. I have only run into film crews twice in my lifetime of exploring. Both times I was met with egotistical morons. The whole "leave no trace" didn't apply to them. In one area of the forest, I witnessed a guy (Producer?) arguing with a Ranger about the having to remove trees from the background to get the shot right. One of the things the guy kept saying was "we have a permit to film here". Don't know how it ended because we left but, I doubt any trees were cut.

That is good news. I suspect that would then extend to photography. I wonder if they’ll tackle drones next. Could get interesting.

Some years ago, when drones were just becoming a fad, you couldn't go anywhere without seeing them all over the place. Some of the more scenic hiking trails were disturbed by the constant whine from drones. I followed the "anti drone" people and most of what caused the laws to be brought forth were because of the noise and people being stupid.

Most the the restricting laws or regulations I've witnessed are because enough idiots don't understand respect.

 

[Tundracamper]

Commercial filming and private filming are 2 different things, I think they are talking more about like national geographic or discovery Channel or some production company filming commercials or shows. I've never heard of needing a permit to film yourself or your family

While true, as soon as you put your video on YouTube and make money from it, it does become commercial.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I'm not so sure this is good. Do we not need passes to camp? They cost money. Now a professional National Geographic or Discovery Channel film crew gets a pass, and cost gets passed on to the little guy. Maybe I dont have all of the details?

As was already said, there is a difference between commercial filming and personal filming. Even putting it on YouTube is personal, unless you have such amazing content that youtube decides to monetize it.

 

[JCBigler]

Some years ago, when drones were just becoming a fad, you couldn't go anywhere without seeing them all over the place. Some of the more scenic hiking trails were disturbed by the constant whine from drones. I followed the "anti drone" people and most of what caused the laws to be brought forth were because of the noise and people being stupid.

Technically, the NPS can't prohibit you from flying over the National Park. What they can do is prohibit you from taking off and landing from the park grounds, much the same a NYC prohibits the same.

If you can find a location, such a a private house that exists inside the the park or boarders it, you can take off and fly over the park from there, as long as you stay within line of sight. Sure, the park rangers will try to hassle you about it, but if you know the actual regulations, then they will eventually leave you alone.

Yes, I'm a Part 107 certified drone pilot.

 

[smritte]

Technically, the NPS can't prohibit you from flying over the National Park. What they can do is prohibit you from taking off and landing from the park grounds, much the same a NYC prohibits the same.

That's interesting because if you search it, this pops up.

Since June of 2014, the U.S. National Park Service (NPS) has had a ban in place on the use of drones in national parks.
This ban applies to the 417 national parks, 23 trails, and 60 rivers that the NPS manages. The ban was issued as Policy Memorandum 14-05 on June 16, 2014.

Then answers this question.
What If I’m an FAA-Certified Drone Pilot?
The ban on drones in national parks is a blanket prohibition that applies to both recreational and commercial drone pilots, with no distinction made between the two.

Also my comment was more towards the idiots involved, which I'm sure your not. Unfortunately its the idiots who stand out. Being able to find a grey area to exploit something is also another way to get things shut down. I was a volunteer for BLM and Forest service for three decades and I sat on the BLM desert advisory council for a short while. I've personally witnessed people pushing grey areas then being hurt and insulted when their "hassled" by the rangers. I've also watched people blatantly break laws and claim "its my right" after destroying an area with their 4wd. I don't mind people flying drones but, I don't want to hear or see them if I'm out in the wilderness trying to get away.

 

[John21powerwagon]

I do not mind that visitors are restricted from operating/taking off/landing while standing in a national park. Need to play with your drone, there’s plenty of NFS/BLM lands (except restricted areas such as federally designated wilderness etc)

 

[Boostpowered]

While true, as soon as you put your video on YouTube and make money from it, it does become commercial.

Never done that so won't apply to me. but yeah I kind-of get that, though how do they know unless you register the YouTube channel name.

 

[bgenlvtex]

The issue is in how they define "commercial", which should be defined by the number of participants and the impact of those participants.

Large scale movie productions should be banned entirely. Individuals? Yeah those are individuals no matter what they do with the video.

I'm a little conflicted over the drones. I don't think they should be completely excluded from NPS and they certainly add a beneficial dimension to viewing the NPS in many cases reducing the impact of land travel in sensitive areas. But I also think that they can be a "nuisance", and in airspace above private property should be fair game to treat them as such. Federal licensing is just another cash grab and bureaucratic expansion, that serves no meaningful purpose in effective use.

 

[bgenlvtex]

Never done that so won't apply to me. but yeah I kind-of get that, though how do they know unless you register the YouTube channel name.

Karen complains about you doing it.

 

[smritte]

I think the issue needs to be looked at with a different set of eyes. The question that needs to be answered is, why was the rule/law put in place to begin with?
Was it just one person looking to capitalize on a situation or was it the people who oversee an area got tired of stupidity.
If we take a good look at "why" certain laws were made, we find most of the time the problem is people. What ends up happening when a law is made, people get defensive when their told they cant do something. They only see themselves and not the bigger picture.

I would love to have a drone to use for pictures and video. I will probably never be able to use one be cause of the ones who didn't care what they did. As for the permitting of large scale move production, they were allowed to go unchecked for years. The California and Nevada sierra range is where most westerns were shot as well as sci fi. Some of the areas are on tourist maps. One comes to mind right off the bat. The area where they filmed Planet of the Apes. That would be the Trona Pinnacles. You can see the metal plates where the movie set was anchored and the scars from where they had to "trim areas".

Concerning Drone flying. Did you know that some birds will attack a drone? We were camping in a canyon that's also a common shooting area near me. The people in the camp across were taunting the birds and trying to hit them with the Drone. Another one is, we pulled into a forest campground to refill our water. We came into an altercation between two family's. The "Drone" pilot was "Harmlessly" filming people camping by flying into their camp. It seems this went on for a while. The one family was tired of it and asked them to stop. The reply was "What are you going to do about it?"
The Ranger had arrived just as it escalated. We saw him later and asked about it. His comment was how he's tired of having to deal with these things.

Vehicle modification laws were started in the 50's. Police got tired of scraping people off the pavement
Anyone who lived through the ATC/Jetski fad of the 80's could probably figure out why those got restricted in areas. This includes the helmet laws that came about in the early 90's.
My local sand dunes got so bad when sand toys became a fad that restrictions had to be made. You should have seen the outcry there.
The list goes on.

Again, when we see things being restricted we need to step back and try to see it from another perspective. It's entirely possible the permits/restrictions were for a reason.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I think the issue needs to be looked at with a different set of eyes. The question that needs to be answered is, why was the rule/law put in place to begin with?
Was it just one person looking to capitalize on a situation or was it the people who oversee an area got tired of stupidity.
If we take a good look at "why" certain laws were made, we find most of the time the problem is people. What ends up happening when a law is made, people get defensive when their told they cant do something. They only see themselves and not the bigger picture.

I would love to have a drone to use for pictures and video. I will probably never be able to use one be cause of the ones who didn't care what they did. As for the permitting of large scale move production, they were allowed to go unchecked for years. The California and Nevada sierra range is where most westerns were shot as well as sci fi. Some of the areas are on tourist maps. One comes to mind right off the bat. The area where they filmed Planet of the Apes. That would be the Trona Pinnacles. You can see the metal plates where the movie set was anchored and the scars from where they had to "trim areas".

Concerning Drone flying. Did you know that some birds will attack a drone? We were camping in a canyon that's also a common shooting area near me. The people in the camp across were taunting the birds and trying to hit them with the Drone. Another one is, we pulled into a forest campground to refill our water. We came into an altercation between two family's. The "Drone" pilot was "Harmlessly" filming people camping by flying into their camp. It seems this went on for a while. The one family was tired of it and asked them to stop. The reply was "What are you going to do about it?"
The Ranger had arrived just as it escalated. We saw him later and asked about it. His comment was how he's tired of having to deal with these things.

Vehicle modification laws were started in the 50's. Police got tired of scraping people off the pavement
Anyone who lived through the ATC/Jetski fad of the 80's could probably figure out why those got restricted in areas. This includes the helmet laws that came about in the early 90's.
My local sand dunes got so bad when sand toys became a fad that restrictions had to be made. You should have seen the outcry there.
The list goes on.

Again, when we see things being restricted we need to step back and try to see it from another perspective. It's entirely possible the permits/restrictions were for a reason.

To make video or take photos for personal use at any public place is perfectly legal UNLESS you have to use any special equipment or do anything out of the ordinary to do it. For example, you can film anything you want as you walk down a city street, however, if you have to climb a tree to see the people in the pool on the other side of the fence, well that becomes illegal, or warrants a permit of some sort. Property lines and the expectation of privacy or peace and quiet do come into play, as does continuing to film a person who has asked not to be.

I can only imagine a Ranger who has had to search for missing people, just had to deal with a forest fire, or wrote up a report of some idiot who just sizzled to death in a hot pool, now having to quell an argument between a drone pilot and a father with teenage girls at a campground.

There is a club of radio control model airplanes not far from me. It's my understanding that they had to get a license to do what they do, and that by crossing property lines or "crossing" the FAA in any way, gets thier licenses pulled.

Personally, I am currently of the opinion that one should need a license to purchase or operate a drone with a certain amount of range. To wit, that jackass in California who is flying the mannequin drone in the flight path near the airport. So the answer to the question "what are you gonna do about it?!" would be very simple. Ticket. Legal summons, marks against your professional or even drivers license. Possibly escalating to criminal charges depending.

I realize there are few property lines in a national park, and that it is public land, but so is the post office, and technically one is not allowed to carry a firearm in a post office - even if you have every applicable state or federal license to have or carry. I recognize that there can be restrictions even in public places and I dont really have a problem with drone restriction, or commercial filming restrictions.

Your vehicle modifications and ATV analogy, while being a matter of safety vs personal rights, is pretty spot on. In this case, instead of a matter of safety, it would be a matter of protection of the parks, personal rights of the people who dont want to be filmed, and or the "quiet enjoyment" of the park by others.

Just one man's ramblings

 

[smritte]

Your points are valid. Most of what I was referring to was how people react when told they cant do something anymore. People tend to only see themselves and not what others do. Then there's the jackass. My comment about what the "drone operator" said, I have heard time and time again. So, what are you going to do about it? or "There's no signs saying I cant do that".......

I never stay in public campgrounds unless I have to. On one occasion a guy and his son came into camp after dark. I helped him get his camp set up using my lanterns. It seems he never set up in the dark before. We were camping in my local forest and I was there as a volunteer to run some of the 4wd trails and see if they needed work.

He asked about where he and his son could ride their dirt bikes. I handed him a spare map and went over the trail system, pointing out where he couldn't ride because they were green stickered. He immediately got defensive and told me he could ride where he wants and all these rules were BS. I went back to my camp and he stayed pissed at me because I now was "One of them". The next day he rode off, tearing up the side of the mountain off trail.

I guess because I have seen so much rampant stupidity that I've become a bit jaded.